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Post by gogonutz on Nov 2, 2008 17:30:10 GMT -5
I don't think there will be complete equality and equal opportunities ever.. I mean, it's a great ideal, but it just isn't in the competitive nature of human beings (or any other species for that matter).
Essentially our survival instinct (in the broadest sense) is still our strongest instinct, which is point one why completely equal opportunities will not exist.
#2. Equal opportunites (completely) are an illusion, as not all people CAN be equal. Some people have a greater intelligence than others, some people are stronger than others, some people are something else better than others, etc.
So therefore, within a certain field they will have more opportunities than others will.
And this will prevent equal opportunites, and complete equality on a social level.
This however doesn't mean it's not a good thing to work on balancing it out more than it is now, because in some cases things are plain ridiculous. The financial balance is distorted, and everyone knows it, but the people who have the most money also control the balance. It's not something you can correct with politics, or at least not too much. Though again, I admit that would be a good start.
The problem with a lot of these issues though, is that for a free world (and this includes a free market) we need the competitive (yet fair) nature and rules. This however is in favor of those who know how to play the game. So I don't know if we can really ever get a total balance.
In more practical ideals, and this is something I praise Obama for, is that there needs to be more of a sense of togetherness instead of individualism. Obama unites and connects people, which I find very important in these days. Because individualism, egocentrism and solitude are everywhere. Instead of that togetherness, solidarity and friendship should be ideals that we should hold on to, because the old saying of "divided we will fall, together will shall conquer all" is something that I find eternal wisdom.
But before I write a complete essay here, I do agree with you that what Obama does (and I'm speaking of his social influence more than his policies/issues) is admirable and that he brings hope and change in a time where America (and most of the world, for that matter) needs it most. He starts to bridge gaps between people from different races, genders, religions, etc. and it seems to work (for now).
All I'm saying though, is that I'm very wary of wanting too much too soon, as a lot of ideals (how wonderful they might be, and how much I'd like them to happen) seem impossible when I look to basic human instincts and the way the free world/free market works. Socialism was once thought of to provide equal opportunities for people, which was an interesting theory, but in practice it didn't let brilliance and excellence flourish and as a political system it was a complete failure. But then again, people don't fit in a system, we're too complex for a system.
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Post by gurlnlifemagazine on Nov 2, 2008 17:42:02 GMT -5
Yeah, and of course it's good to be aware of how it was, to not lapse back into that, but constant reminders also kind of is a trap door because it doesn't really allow you to let the past go, which will be necessary if the final step to close the gap between races, genders, ideologies, religions, etc. I don't know if the human race will ever be mature enough for that, but I keep hoping it will. And events like the current US presidential race seem to be a step in the right direction at least. "Lapse back into that"? I don't think you're making a valid point. Pointing out that Obama has exceeded expectations that wouldn't have been made possible 10 years ago is something to talk about. That's like saying we shouldn't talk about the advancement of human technology since the 50's because we want to move pass that. History is the most important thing that we have and the reason we get better in time so I don't see how there is a threat of "lapsing back into that" by acknowledging the history that Obama is making. I think your trying to hard to make a point that's not necessary to make. The only way to know where we're going is to know where we're coming from. |
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Post by gogonutz on Nov 2, 2008 18:41:23 GMT -5
lol, Lisa, I studied archaeology, so I do value the past. The point I'm making is not to forget the past, but to learn from it. But to clarify what I meant: If people constantly keep saying "only a little while ago, this wouldn't have been possible, or this and that was still happening which is why certain groups of people were shut out of this and that" or similar things, it is a constant reminder, and it keeps emphasizing a division between people. Of course we should all acknowledge it, and yes, Obama does something that is historical, even though in some aspects it's being made bigger than it is (in my opinion, not a fact). But my point is that it's a better idea to focus on the improvement than to keep reminding everyone of what went wrong. There's a difference between ignoring the past and focusing on the future. Everyone who ignores the past is naive, but people who can't stop living in the past are naive too. All I'm saying is we should not live in the past but focus on the future, as that is where we can change things for the better. If we use the past as a tool to make things better, sure, great, but we should be careful to not let the past (or past sentiments) take over, as those could be in the way of the (future) improvements. (I hope I made it a little clearer, it's hard to find the right words in english.. you should all learn Dutch so I can explain better  ) |
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Post by jolene102 on Nov 2, 2008 19:22:09 GMT -5
^it made sense to me. your english is way better than mine.  i understand lisa's point too. |
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Post by adhara on Nov 2, 2008 19:38:56 GMT -5
Koen, I disagree with your point about how equal opportunities are an illusion. Maybe we disagree on what constitutes "equal opportunities." Obviously, equal OUTCOMES are not possible, as there are some differences of intelligence, physical strength, etc., from birth due to God, chance, or whatever/whoever controls these things. But some of the differences in human's physical and mental capacities are due to the society that humans have created, which is why I interpret "equal opportunity" very broadly. I think equal opportunity is already distorted right from the beginning of life. One example is in maternal health - maternal health is one of the most important determinants of a child's health, especially because maternal health relates to very low birth weight, and/or premature birth. Premature and very low birth weight babies have a higher risk of developmental disorders, learning disorders, and health problems. So things like lack of access to prenatal health care (including smoking cessation programs), poor maternal diets, stress, etc., put certain babies at a disadvantage right from the start. And when these factors run along racial and/or socioeconomic lines, it's not "genetic." Some of the causes of poor diet, lack of access to care, and what not are socially instituted - like lack of paid maternity leave in the United States (which is available in nearly every country), fewer supermarkets and more environmental pollutants in poor neighborhoods, and a broken health care system that excludes and whose incentives are toward acute treatment rather than prevention. Then there are those social institutions and circumstances of early childhood, such as poverty, lack of access to health care, and lack of early childhood education, all of which shape the opportunities available later in life. When these factors are drawn in racial and socioeconomic lines, it's again, society more than genetics that determines the extent of opportunity. Why do cigarette companies disporportionately advertise in poor neighborhoods, and black and Latino magazines, unequally perpetuating unhealthy behavior along social lines? Why does the U.S. allow unlimited junkfood advertisement toward kids, when many countries ban such advertisement for the sake of their children's health over the profits of corporations? Why does our welfare system penalize low-income families who actually have jobs? And housing policies that put poor families into moldy housing that makes children develop asthma and miss school because they get sick? When it's society creating these problems of unequal opportunity and that leads to unequal opportunity later in life, it should be society that leads the way for solutions. A fair and democratic one should. I realize that most of these are health examples, because that's what I know best. But I think it's safe to say that human physical and mental capacity are influenced early in life by social determinants. These social factors can be changed (via policy, change in how we see and treat each other, etc) so that there can be equal opportunity to the full extent possible. I'm not arguing for socialism, which I think is more along the lines of equal outcomes. I just think that some of the things we take for granted, like intelligence, physical strength, talent, and hard work, are in part influenced by social forces. I think we'll go a long way toward equal opportunity if we address those social factors that automatically put certain groups of people on an unequal footing. What's left is our God given abilities (or whatever), and then we can all fight it out. But it'll be a fair fight . edit: I realize I wrote a lot of stuff that on first read doesn't seem to be directly related to the election. But I think what I was trying to get at is that these ideals that we all would like to see happen are not impossible, and can be worked into a competitive world. |
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Post by gurlnlifemagazine on Nov 2, 2008 20:38:20 GMT -5
But to clarify what I meant: If people constantly keep saying "only a little while ago, this wouldn't have been possible, or this and that was still happening which is why certain groups of people were shut out of this and that" or similar things, it is a constant reminder, and it keeps emphasizing a division between people. Of course we should all acknowledge it, and yes, Obama does something that is historical, even though in some aspects it's being made bigger than it is (in my opinion, not a fact). But my point is that it's a better idea to focus on the improvement than to keep reminding everyone of what went wrong. There's a difference between ignoring the past and focusing on the future. Everyone who ignores the past is naive, but people who can't stop living in the past are naive too. All I'm saying is we should not live in the past but focus on the future, as that is where we can change things for the better. If we use the past as a tool to make things better, sure, great, but we should be careful to not let the past (or past sentiments) take over, as those could be in the way of the (future) improvements. Let me simplify my point a bit. I don't see what's wrong with mentioning it because I think it keeps us going. Saying that 10 years ago Obama for president wouldn't have been possible points out how ignorant that was back then and how much progress we've made. I don't see how that will keep us divided at all. In fact, it's the exact opposite. It's okay to say that. I seriously doubt that mentality will set us back 10 years |
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Post by tonya on Nov 2, 2008 22:53:35 GMT -5
I am completely disgusted and outraged by this story: www.ksdk.com/news/national/story.aspx?storyid=159123&catid=28Not just because I am an Obama supporter. I would be outraged if it were an Obama supporter doing this also. I do NOT understand people. Of course we should take the election seriously, but there comes a point where it's taken far too seriously. |
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Post by SparkleLH85 on Nov 3, 2008 1:14:38 GMT -5
thats not fair and pretty ridiculous! even though i am not an Obama supporter
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Post by KarlatheLHFan on Nov 3, 2008 1:48:59 GMT -5
The woman not giving candy out to people that support obama is just plain assanine (sp?).. omg!
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Post by tonya on Nov 3, 2008 8:53:10 GMT -5
It really burns my cookies at how she said "Oh well. Everyone has a choice." Children under the age of 18 do not have a choice! They don't have a choice in who their parents are, who their parents are voting for or who becomes the next president of the United States. All the kids wanted was to have fun on Halloween and dress up and get some candy. What a way to suck the fun right out of what is supposed to be a fun night about children.
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Post by klein on Nov 3, 2008 11:19:53 GMT -5
oh well, tomorrow it'll all be over.......
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Post by gogonutz on Nov 3, 2008 13:00:44 GMT -5
Koen, I disagree with your point about how equal opportunities are an illusion. Maybe we disagree on what constitutes equal opportunities That might be part of it. I don't really have the time now to go into your points completely, so I'll save that for another time (because I find this a very interesting discussion, but maybe we can discuss this another time, and maybe somewhere else, lol, because these posts get quite long on here) |
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Post by gurlnlifemagazine on Nov 3, 2008 19:37:27 GMT -5
If you guys get a chance to catch Obama speaking about his grandmother, who died today, you have to watch it. He was so, so, so great. He actually cried while speaking and never breaking his voice. And it was a strong moment. I can only imagine his pain. He's been through so much this year and on the eve of the day that he might make history, he looses his biggest supporter. And the sad part is that that's life.
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Post by adhara on Nov 3, 2008 19:53:30 GMT -5
If you guys get a chance to catch Obama speaking about his grandmother, who died today, you have to watch it. He was so, so, so great. He actually cried while speaking and never breaking his voice. And it was a strong moment. I can only imagine his pain. He's been through so much this year and on the eve of the day that he might make history, he looses his biggest supporter. And the sad part is that that's life. |
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Post by allie on Nov 3, 2008 19:55:08 GMT -5
If you guys get a chance to catch Obama speaking about his grandmother, who died today, you have to watch it. He was so, so, so great. He actually cried while speaking and never breaking his voice. And it was a strong moment. I can only imagine his pain. He's been through so much this year and on the eve of the day that he might make history, he looses his biggest supporter. And the sad part is that that's life. aw! i hadnt heard this till i just read what your wrote.. ill definitely have to go youtube it or something.. ive said before, and ill say it again, i could just listen to that man speak for hours on end. for whatever reason, his voice is SO soothing and just amazing to me. so yeah.. poor guy.  |
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